From Rent to Peg + Cat: Billy Aronson on Creativity, Kids’ TV & Surviving the Creative Struggle

Interviewer (John):

Hello there, everybody. Welcome to, uh, another episode of my The Final Cut podcast. And, um, you can see that this week, um, unlike, uh, previous podcasts when we’ve used a Hollywood backgrounde, we’re very much New York, um, today. And that is in honor of a distinguished guest, uh, for today, who’s very much, uh, a star of the New York art scene and actually a real creative powerhouse. So, I’m delighted to welcome Billy Arnson to our latest podcast.

Now, Billy’s work has touched everything from Broadway to children’s television. Uh, Billy Arnson’s an award-winning playwright and screenwriter who first conceived the idea that would become Rent, the hit musical rock musical for the MTV generation that went on to win, uh, numerous awards. But that’s only just one chapter of his story. He’s also written, uh, a whole series of very successful one-act and also full-length plays, many of which have been published and anthologized, and quite a few of which have also been nominated for awards.

So, not only that, he’s also, um, a very, um, experienced and successful writer of children’s television, and, um, his credits on this are numerous, including iconic shows like Sesame Street, Beavis and Butt-Head, uh, which I fondly remember, but also, um, more recent work in the last 10 years or so, um, the Octonauts for CBBC, which my son used to watch avidly. And perhaps most, um, importantly, he’s co-creator of Peg and Cat for PBS Kids, that ran successfully in the, uh, the 2010s and won, um, numerous awards and numerous Emmy nominations. So, this is somebody who has got a varied track record. And to cap it all, Billy is also the author of a powerful memoir that we also want to discuss today called Out of My Head: Learning to Reach People Through the Arts.

Um, Billy’s holding up the, uh, the book as we speak. U, this is a very interesting memoir. It’s, it’s both a how-to and also, I think, a survival guide for, um, working in the arts. Uh, a remarkable book that was published earlier this year by Bayer Manner Media and is available at an online bookshop near you or bookstore near you. So, I’m delighted to welcome to the latest podcast, Billy Aronson. Billy, how are you in New York?

Billy Aronson:

Great. John and Charlotte, so glad to be here. Uh, that was a wonderful introduction. I hope to prove worthy of it.

Interviewer (John):

Oh, I think you know, we’re, we’re delighted that you’ve decided to join us, actually. Here, the hottest day of the year in Scotland. So, I don’t know what it’s like where you are.

Billy Aronson:

It’s one of the hottest days here in Brooklyn. So, we can, we can share that. We share that.

Interviewer (John):

Well, great. Well, look, um, it’s a remarkable career, and I want, but I want to take you right back to the very beginning because, um, digging around on your, your bio, it looks as if you came originally from Pennsylvania, but then were enrolled in the very prestigious Ivy League universities, I think Princeton initially, and then Yale School of Drama. So, presumably that’s what brought you to, to the New York area. So, I’m just curious, you’re, how did you get started and, and how did you establish yourself, first of all, in the New York art scene?

Billy Aronson:

Well, I kind of, it would be hard for me to remember how I actually got started because I always was this, had this feeling that talking wasn’t enough. That the thoughts in my head, that the feelings that I had, I wanted to share them so badly, and I had no idea how. So, I would pick up a recorder, a musical instrument, and try to do it through that. And sometimes that felt great, and I would act in plays, and sometimes that seemed to work. But by college, I, after a particularly, um, thrilling and heartbreaking romance, uh, the world seemed to crack open for me, and I had so many new feelings about whatever this adulthood thing was and connecting with another human being. It seemed so impossible and glorious. I just had to do something bigger about that. And so playwriting kind of found me. I, I didn’t think of myself as a writer at that point, but I became one. And I would make plays, and I would just, I would force my friends to be in them during exam period. I would beg the most talented kids on campus to join me and watch them succeed and fail, more often failing in the beginning, and sit there and deal with that, and then try, try again harder the next year, and then the next year, and then the next year. And then, uh, yeah, I started out. We, we grew up in Level Marion, in the suburbs of Philadelphia, mostly. But then I went to Princeton for college. And then, um, right after studying at Princeton, Billy, what, what did you major in at Princeton?

Billy Aronson:

Well, I tried majoring in everything: philosophy, religion, anthropology, my first couple of years. And I realized I have to be an English major because I can’t do anything else. I just love English, and I particularly love drama, but they didn’t have a drama major. So, I, I took the English, and I studied a lot of Shakespeare, and I did, there was a program, but most of the writing, the work I did in theater was on my own without getting course credit for it. Just like, somehow, with all those other courses and needing to pass all these other courses and needing to work to pay for your bills, I just also needed to do this extracurricular thing, these huge projects that consumed my soul for four years. And then, um, I, I didn’t know what I wanted to do after college. I only applied to one graduate school. Uh, it was Yale Drama School, which just sounded so cool that I had to try for it. And I got in, and I worked at that for three years. I think the main thing I learned at drama school is you can’t depend on other people to tell you what to do with your work. You have to figure it out for yourself. Did that have to take me three years of other people telling me what to do and listening to them and bowing down to them and saying, “Thank you, thank you. I’ll go as far as you want in that direction”? I don’t know. But it is an important lesson to learn. Uh, then I came to New York, kind of because that’s where you go for theater, I was told. And I have also always sort of liked the pace of New York, which most people, I think, is, which isn’t right for most people, but I always liked that in New York, when you come to a corner, if the light is red and there are no cars, everybody just walks. The point, you know, there’s this unspoken thing that the point of the rules is to serve us. If they’re not serving us, why are we bo? You know, if these rules aren’t going to keep me from getting killed, why do I care about the rules? That’s sort of everybody in New York, whatever they’re doing, it seems there’s a sort of desperation, might not determination, a drive, a passion behind it. Anyway, so it, New York has always sort of worked for me. So that’s how I, I ended up here and I’ve stayed ever since.

Interviewer (John):

Can I ask a bit about Rent? As I said, I love the musical and it’s amazing. Absolutely. But, uh, what, what, why did you, what do you, why did you conceive this idea? Where do you get the idea from linking the opera to, uh, to the East Village? I mean, to move it from La Bohème to New York, East Village? And, and, uh, I mean, Puccini is wonderful. I mean, we just visited Italy the other day to, to see and, you know, and it’s, it’s a quite, um, interesting topic. You also, do you talk about homelessness, AIDS crisis, etc.? So, what, what brought this on and why did you want to write about that?

Billy Aronson:

Well, I was always looking for more ideas for plays. When I came to New York, I just started from scratch, kind of. And I, I went to see everything because there was so much exciting theater in New York. Uh, I can say there was then, and all kinds of avant-garde, crazy, experimental in every direction. Dance theater, art theater, um, all kinds of music theater and circus and contortion, and I, I just loved it. I learned so much from it. And one of the things that I stumbled into was the opera, which I lived in Hell’s Kitchen, which is right near Lincoln Center, actually. So, even though it was a very cheap apartment, you walk 10 minutes and you’re at this glorious, the Metropolitan Opera, where I could for maybe three or four or five dollars go in and get standing room and have five hours of great music and drama. So, I kind of fell in love with that. I just sort of got opera after having, I mean, I heard it when I was growing up. My father loved it, but I didn’t get it, you know, it seemed, what’s all that VBR about? But anyway, I got it, and all of a sudden, all of it seemed really amazing to me. So, I saw a lot of it, but Bohème was one of the first that I fell in love with. It’s just a gorgeous opera. And I related to the situation, of course, because there are these four artists. One of them is a playwright. I, and they’re all, no. Um, I made one of them a playwright in my mind. But, uh, they’re all there. They, they seemed like us, like me and my friends, except that it was all so luscious. It was all so wonderful and beautiful. And, you know, the, the, the tenor could sing, “Welcome to my life, my true love. You know, I have no money, but I’ve got a great life.” And then I would walk home to Hell’s Kitchen after that, and the world was so caustic in the mid-80s that I walked through on my way to my Hell’s Kitchen home, where there were different drugs sold on every floor and people dying everywhere, and money was in fashion all of a sudden. Uh, and being an artist was not in fashion at that time. It was “Material Girl” days, you know, and I, I was not a material boy. I had no material. So, I really felt I wanted to do something with that great Bohème inspiration of what it’s like being young and fighting for your life in the city. But, um, with the modern edge, with that sharp edge to it that I saw in the world around me. So, it was an idea I had, and I was writing plays, of course, at the time, and I hadn’t written a musical. But at one point, I had a new play I really liked, but theaters were considering, and I didn’t really, I didn’t want to start writing another play while all the theaters were considering this one play. So, I thought maybe that Bohème idea would work with music. And, uh, so I went to a theater called Playwrights Horizons that did readings of my plays. They recommended two composers, one of whom was Jonathan Larson, and he was very excited about it. So, we, uh, we were excited about each other’s work. I heard some of his, and he heard some of mine. So, we got down to business with them. So, that’s, that’s where that idea came from.

Interviewer (John):

Yeah. And so, you, you, um, I think you, obviously conceived the original idea. You also, um, co-composed, I think, three tunes, um, two, three, three numbers, um, with Jonathan Larson. And then there’s, there’s a remarkable sort of behind-the-scenes story with Rent, because Jonathan Larson then takes this forward, I think, with your blessing. And it would be quite interesting to sort of go into the politics of that, how, how that relationship worked out. But then, of course, you know, Jonathan Larson, just as that show was starting to really establish itself, I think, when it, it just got launched on Broadway, he suddenly died. It was actually the night before the first off-Broadway preview. Yeah. So, to take us through all of that, that’s kind of quite weird to, you know, I would imagine for you to process that whole history. So, how, first of all, why did Larson take it forward with your blessing? How, where were you in this? And how?

Billy Aronson:

I tell you, John, I could tell that it was going nowhere. I could. No, we were working on it for a couple of years. We didn’t really know how to collaborate. So, he wanted things his way, I wanted things my way. That’s what we were used to. That’s the joy of making art is, you know, you have some control over the, um, so we did come up with three songs together. I don’t write music, but I wrote the words to three songs. And we had an outline for the script, and none of the theaters that we took it to bit, you know, wanted to start giving us money to take it further. And we both had had plenty of readings and didn’t want to write something else that would just get readings. So, he went on to do his one-character version of his, his artistic life, uh, that was then called Boho Days, but became Tick, Tick… Boom! Um, and I went on to write some more plays and get married and have children. So, we were quite happy going our separate ways with it. And after a year or two, he got back to me and said he wanted to go ahead with his own, on his own with it. Um, would that be okay? And we agreed that he could, as long as I got credit and compensation. So, which I thought then, I just thought, man, I would get like a few hundred dollars maybe if it were done off-Broadway, so that to pay back for the demo tape we made. I was going to get my few hundred dollars back. Right. So, um, uh, and then there was that time where, yeah, it was just his, he was working on it by himself, taking it to this theater and that theater. It was never easy. People were interested in it, but nobody wanted to go ahead and produce this whole musical about people all wearing black and dying. Um, and it’s hard to make money with an off-Broadway musical that, and it had so many characters, would be expensive for an off-Broadway theater. So, what are you going to do with it? But he kept at it. He would pass me tapes and scripts, and I could see that he was really inspired. But I thought, he kept getting better all the time. He got more focused, and he was about, he was writing about something that was from his heart. So, um, before it opened off-Broadway, we were going back and forth about what my, what my bio would say and all this, and then I got the news that he died, which, yeah, it was absolutely bizarre. Because then I went to see it with my wife, an early preview of it, and we could tell it was really special. He wasn’t there. Terribly sad, but I realized this is going to be huge. Uh, I didn’t even think Broadway, it’s much. It’s really great. Um, and so I felt bad that I wasn’t involved with it. I felt stupid. I felt angry at myself. I felt embarrassed. I also felt scared that what if the words that I wrote ruined the whole thing. So, it was that too. I felt, um, a lot of mixed feelings.

Interviewer (John):

But I mean, because at that time, I mean, these sort of topics were quite, people were quite sensitive about this. I mean, it was quite, I mean, even here in the UK, it was quite difficult to, I think, release that kind of material. But, uh, I don’t know if they had the same sort of resistance, but, uh, very important, important.

Billy Aronson:

Oh, yeah. On Broadway at that time, there was nothing like that on Broadway. I mean, we always, that’s why I didn’t think it would ever be on Broadway because I thought of Broadway as a place that’s more like Disneyland. It’s happy, people come to pay a lot of money from out of town. It’s mostly, who is going to, young people? Sure. Jonathan always felt it should bring young people back to the theater, but I didn’t know young people who could afford to go to Broadway at that time. So, you know, I thought, great, let’s go for it. I didn’t think that was going to happen. Yeah. But he always did. Yeah. So, yeah, it’s, it’s a very interesting story and, and you know, um, absolutely fascinating to find out about your early role in, in Rent. But of course, as Rent was, was sort of just dating, you were also establishing yourself, uh, as a playwright. But interestingly, as well, kids’ TV seems to feature very early on, because looking back at your, your bio on IMDb, I noticed you were, I think, production assistant on something called Defenders of the Earth from 1986. Um, unless that’s a mistake. Uh, it can be. IMDb can get things wrong. That’s not you, is it? I don’t remember that. I’m only saying I don’t remember because I did so much stuff for money along the way. Anything is possible, but I don’t remember that one.

Interviewer (John):

Right. That’s interesting. I did wrong. How did you start in children’s television? What inspired?

Billy Aronson:

Well, it began with money. I just wanted to make money while I was playwriting. I first started by doing late-night paralegal work, which was okay for a while, but it was slow, and it took lots of hours late at night, and I wanted to do, I found that if you do something that uses your talent a little bit, you can make much more money, you can make money more quickly. I think I first did a few audition scripts for Sesame Street. That was like, the five-minute script was $750. I couldn’t believe that they paid me $750. I could get new stereos and speakers, you know, and a VCR. I felt rich. So, then I started applying to every television show, every magazine, everything. And I found that the things that I was good at were things that I enjoyed. So, I, I tried to write, tried very hard to write for a soap opera. I did the whole audition process for that, but I just wasn’t good at it. It was hard work. I didn’t really enjoy it. And the people who do that kind of writing really enjoy it. They’ve got a flare for it. They love those conversations. So, you can’t fake it. I somehow worked out well often in children’s television and other goofy comedy, weird, goofy plays with language. Educational is fine. I don’t mind education because to me, every time you write a play, you’re learning. You’re discovering the world for the first time, kind of. That’s what the arts is for me. So, the more I got into children’s television, the more it became like making art to me. Um, Beavis and Butt-Head, Courage the Cowardly Dog were two of the shows I wrote the best for. I think they weren’t somebody else’s shows, but I was able, I think we intersected well. And then, as you said, Peg Plus Cat, I got to do my own show with an artist named Jennifer Oxley, where we created our own universe. What fun that was. Yes.

Interviewer (John):

So, so yeah, to to take you through that. So, when, when did you start, um, on kids’ TV then? Um, if it wasn’t with Defenders of the Earth, is it, was it in the 90s, um, that you were doing this? So, you had established yourself as a playwright, right? By the, but it was the mid-80s. It was actually when I started working with Jonathan. It was about the same time because I was looking for other things to do than playwriting, particularly to make money. I didn’t expect the musical to make money, but I wanted, you know, my, my fiance was going to come move from Cambridge to be with me. I wanted to, uh, I wanted her to be sure that she made the right choice, and I wanted to afford so that we could have kids together and things like that.

Charlotte:

Could I ask you about your writing style? So, how do you find writing for children? Is, is that different from writing for adults, etc.?

Billy Aronson:

Ultimately, Charlotte, it’s the same thing. I know that sounds insane. Ultimately, you’re, I mean, you don’t use certain words, but actually, I find with kids, more than adults, if you use a word they might not understand, as long as it’s clear in context, they can enjoy discovering things. They enjoy discovering new words. Grown-ups might get restless, “What does that?” You know, but, uh, it’s very much alike. I have, I mean, there are certain things about my personality that make that true. It’s not true for everyone. Most people would have to say, “Gee, if I’m going to write for kids, what does a kid want? How does a kid think?” I don’t think that way because I think that’s you. I don’t think ever that writing for a hypothetical audience is ever good. You’ve got to write for real people, like yourself. You’ve got to make yourself laugh and move yourself and thrill yourself with what you’re writing. I don’t think imag Oh, a kid would like this anyway, just for me, because I am naturally juvenile. I’m naturally kooky, you know. I love playing with language, and that doesn’t make me any less serious. But so, I think it’s worked well for that, and not so well for soap operas or, uh, writing for news, which I would have done. I would have done anything for money at that point, but this is what I was better at.

Interviewer (John):

So, the obviously your, your, um, premier, um, work in kids’ TV, the thing that you had absolute control over, or more control over, was Peg Plus Cat, which, um, interestingly, is about trying to teach children about math and about trying to get them to, you know, understand the world in, in, a mathematical way. So, take us through the, the genesis of that and, and what inspired you and, I think, your co-creator Jennifer Oxley to, yeah, to, to try and, um, develop kids’ math skills.

Billy Aronson:

Well, again, looking for money. PBS was looking for a math show. It’s very hard to get a new show made, but they were looking for something that taught math to the very young. Three to five, I think, was a target. They invited Jennifer because they were fond of her work. She’d, uh, done the visuals, the look of the Wonder Pets, which was a very successful Nickelodeon show that I wrote for. And so she was one of three dozen producers I invited to to, she, she didn’t realize that there were that many competitors going for this gig. Neither did I. But anyway, she invited me to team up with her, and we put our heads together, sort of, you know, she had a character she liked, a couple characters she liked, and I had a kind of a concept, a loose concept for a world of math word problems. Like, it’s like you wake up and you’re in the middle of a math word problem. And we, we made a couple characters who are like me and like her at the same time. That Peg is sort of crazy, you know, freaks out like I do, um, needs to calm herself down to solve a problem. She wants to quit. She freaks out. I, which, you know, I think a lot of people do in the face of math. Uh, and, and, and Cat is goofy. She had a cat like that looked like a cat, the titular cat in our show. So, we, we put our heads together and came up with a, a world in which they could go anywhere. And what fun that was. They could be helping Romeo and Juliet get from one balcony to another, and helping Cat get out of a tree in, in Peg’s backyard in another. Helping Beethoven somewhere, and then in space, in outer space, chasing a hundred chickens. It was so much fun, you know. It was like getting to do hundreds of plays. And because I, we had to come up with stories for, gosh, 130 different 11-minute episodes, maybe something like that. That was the first season alone, in fact. Anyway, so it was a lot of fun and a lot of work.

Interviewer (John):

Yeah. And a lot of success as well. It went on to win Emmys. Wow. You know, I got to tell you about Emmy Awards. That was fun. It’s just, you know, when I sit here watching people win awards on TV, the Oscars and the Tonys, say, this is all kind of ridiculous. They’re all talent, and what’s the big deal? It’s all their friends voting for each other, and it just makes other everybody else feel bad that most of them are going to lose. What’s the point? And then you give it to one person in a show and not to the other person. That’s bad for morale, you know? I hated all that stuff. And when you, when you win one, you love that stuff. I got it. It is so much fun. We won an Emmy award for the best show in our first, in our category, our first year, and I got one for writing a couple of times, and, uh, the show won lots of the music and the visuals and direction, all that stuff. So, I have to say, you know, that was fun. And I do everybody with their kid shows, you point to what’s, what supports your your success. You, this, this poll or this statistic or this, luckily the Emmys was ours because it was one that people, Oh, the Emmy, they’ve heard of the Emmys. Yeah.

Charlotte:

Can I, can I take you back to talk about Sesame Street? Because when I was a child, I was a big fan of Sesame Street, and it was very refreshing compared to the rather more slightly propaganda Swedish programs that was our children’s program. So, uh, and so how was it to working with Sesame Street? And work, or writing for Sesame Street and, uh, working with the puppets?

Billy Aronson:

I loved it. I loved it. Now, I didn’t do a lot of writing for Sesame Street. I wrote these Bert and Ernie exclamation sketches they did, and I wrote, um, one of their home videos that taught about reading, I think it was. But I love Sesame Street, and I think we all, all of us, it was like the mother of us all writing for children’s television. We all can say, “Well, this is what they did in Sesame Street,” you know, to, whatever you want to do. We justified it because we love Sesame Street so much. It was refreshing, like you said. It puts kids at the center, like you said, and it was a place. It was just a fun place to be. And it taught so much stuff. And in the beginning, I thought it was a really great, one of the great shows, period. Aside from kids, because it, it worked before there was lots of children’s television, it really worked for just about all ages. I mean, a teenager could laugh at it. It was funny, and grown-ups could enjoy it. It was one of the funniest shows on TV, and there was plenty for very young kids. Like all of the children’s television and television, it’s become more niche. I mean, they eventually said, “Okay, it’s, it’s just for two to four-year-olds now.” And I liked it a little bit less then, but that was something we all had to struggle with to make something that’s really good for everybody so the family can sit and watch it, and the babysitters don’t have to run screaming from the room, you know, that kind of thing. Um, while still pleasing a demographic. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

Well, one show that maybe, um, is not for the very young, but that you were involved with, Beavis and Butt-Head, which, which I remember as sort of the epitome of ’90s slacker culture. Um, so take us through your work with that. You wrote a few, Butt-Head.

Billy Aronson:

Yeah, it was the first show I’d ever written for where they, that I was already a fan when they called me to write for it. That was pretty exciting. My wife and I noticed this thing that was like nothing else on television. It was like these just, you know, adolescent losers. Like, all as a boy, I can tell you, I felt like them all the time. I felt like me and my friends. I’m sure there were some kids who were really felt great when they were 13, some boys who were great at sports, maybe, and popular. That wasn’t me. So, and my wife and I was just so funny that that, yuck, they were such losers, but they were happy losers. It was a really funny and wonderful conceit, I thought. And the animation was great because it was so simple and refreshing. And so I loved writing for it. I wrote three, three, uh, cartoons for it that they used. I, I was hired to write seven of them, but I guess they involved a lot of boobs, which was a, you know, I thought was, uh, was in keeping with the show, but at some point, they decided, well, we want to go more in this direction or that direction. But I loved writing for it, and I loved meeting Mike Judge, who I think is brilliant, and the other writers were really funny. There was one point where we were in a writer’s room. We were all sitting in the room, and Mike would say an idea, and we’d all kind of, we’d all just sort of laugh, and we realized, I, I looking around the table, I thought, you know, 10 years ago, all of us could have been Beavis and Butt-Head. We were all a little too thin, or too big, or too tall, or too, too something. Yeah. Um, so anyway, that was fun. That’s fun.

Interviewer (John):

And, um, we would be remiss without mentioning a show that, um, my son grew up. He’s a bit, he’s more Beavis and Butt-Head age now, but, but, um, our son watched Octonauts, um, when he was much younger. Now, that, of course, I think was for the British side of things, CBBC, which is, um, for those that don’t know, is this, is an infant channel, that a children’s channel run by the BBC for, for the under-fives. So, um, how did you get involved? I think you’ve written something like 75 episodes of Octonauts.

Billy Aronson:

Well, a few anyway, but, um, yeah, that was when I was doing lots of stuff. I guess in the early 2000s, I got the call, and I, that the show was brand new, so we were helping to develop it. But it was based on the fact that there’s that most of the animals in the world are in the sea, I think, was the premise. And getting to discover those creatures was a joy. And there were certain great characters. I think they’d been in a book before, but, uh, and this head writer, Stephanie Simpson, brought us all from all over the world. There were people from London, as I recall, from England, and people from Los Angeles, and people from New York, and you would come up with an idea and draw it on a big board for everybody. And, uh, although I didn’t write lots for that, uh, it was a blast to write for. I’m glad your son enjoyed it so much. Um, it was a great show. I thought so. I thought I thought it was fun.

Charlotte:

Can I talk a bit about, so, so you went on then to write this memoir. What inspired you to write this memoir? And also, of course, as a psychologist, I’m very interested in, you talk about depression, etc. How, uh, so, h, how did you, I mean, how did you cope under depression? I mean, sometimes they talk about the black dog. I don’t know if you, how did you find? And how did you find the writing? I mean, it can be quite painful as well to write memoirs and things like that. How do you, well, to write the book?

Billy Aronson:

Uh, let me start with that. Um, yeah. I, I find myself often, particularly with young people coming to town, they graduate from college or that I know them somehow from yoga or something, they want to talk to me about how, how to make a life in the arts. And I found myself, as I talked about it, I didn’t realize how, what strong opinions I had, how much I had to say. And so I eventually put it all in a book so I could get it all together and make it tell a whole story and learn for myself what this story had been of my life. Figuring out basically how to get from inside my head, where this world existed and exists, to even to one other person. How do I make you feel what I’m feeling? That’s the story. And it’s hard, and it’s big. And in my case, yes. Uh, it involved lots of anxiety. I think, uh, depression, probably I had low-grade depression all my life, um, that I was kind of running from. But, you know, I think a lot of people in the arts, um, have those things or are dealing with them, and a higher percentage than in other fields, I’m told. Maybe you, you have ideas about that. But, um, so there’s the question of, so then what to do about it? And, uh, over the years, I just had to figure that out step by step. Because there was a time, you know, it fed my, I mean, the angst kind of fed my playwriting at the beginning. It gave me energy. I’ve got to get this stuff out, and I’ve got, and I’m sort of running from or I’m trying to report on what it’s like to have this feeling of something chasing after you all the time. Um, that fear that there’s a darkness in the world that other people don’t see, that can be a great thing to write about. And I think it made my stuff a little unique and different. But, uh, it just became hard to live like that. I mean, I, one thing I have to say to artists, you have to enjoy your life. You don’t, you, for me, you don’t need to suffer. You shouldn’t suffer to be an artist. You should enjoy. Even if you get any, like mindfulness or any other, like therapy, or everything Charlotte, I’ve done everything, and I continue to do everything. But there was one period, uh, where it just hit me so hard, I just had to stop, and I had this major depression that I write about, where the world just lost all meaning. I mean, there, it’s as though all the color was gone. Um, I just couldn’t write. I looked at the laptop, and I didn’t think, why would I want to touch the keys? Why would I want to listen to music? What’s the point of it, you know? So, the CD goes around in circles. It was really weird and and horrifying, but it’s, it had kind of been with me all along, but I’d been running from it or coping with it, you know, and being nervous at parties or faking a smile when people took pictures. And I just finally couldn’t. It was, I guess after a couple of years of Peg Plus Cat, where when I’d written the last episode, I kind of just stopped, and I didn’t know what to do. So, I, I write about it in the book, but as you can tell, I, I made it through. The great news about depression is you make it through, and the other side is so great. But yes, I did a lot of mindfulness. Yoga was huge. Medication was huge for me, not for everybody, but for me. Talk therapy was great. Exercise, I think, is important all your life. Uh, when especially if you’re a writer or an artist, or, you know, in the arts, where you don’t move around a lot, thinking all the time is, is, is dangerous if you’re sitting still. Um, but yeah, mindfulness is great. I’m, I’m still working on the meditation. I’m not great at that. But, uh, yoga is good, and also, just as you get better at feeling more comfortable that you don’t have to be depressed, you get hap, when you realize, wow, I’m not there anymore, you become more comfortable with it. The ground isn’t going to open up underneath you anymore.

Billy Aronson (cont.):

Anyway, interesting thing is that, you know, writing itself is a very good therapist. You, you get that, like, you know, if you are depressed or anxious, we often recommend to people that start writing because I agree, it’s a way. Whenever I was focused on writing something, I felt better. Always is when I’ve got something to write it. So, like in drama school, I was facing that. I, I woke up one day, why am I living? But I then I wrote a play about two, two friends on the telephone, one’s depressed, but wow, this is it. And then all of a sudden, you know, I’ve got that to focus on. I just couldn’t do it this one time in my, was it late 50s, I guess. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

No, it’s a remarkable, um, memoir, and, and you’ve been remarkably honest about your, your own creative struggles, and, and in that sense, inspiring. So, I, I was just wondering, um, part of this, um, book is, is not just a recollection, but it’s also about advice to, um, the new generation and people that are coming on, you know, about, um, it’s, you know, the, the, the subtitle of the book is “Learning to Reach People Through the Arts.” So, so how to do that? Now, it’s an interesting subtitle, you to reach people through the arts. It suggests that perhaps, maybe I’m reading too much into it, but maybe your sense that that people are tremendously atomized today, and that one of the ways that the arts, arts can bridge that and, um, you know, I think Foster once said, “Only connect.” Is that really, is that what’s driving that subtitle?

Billy Aronson:

Yes, that, that’s what it’s about in the end. It’s this anthropological thing. I just want, I’m alone here on Earth with my feelings and thoughts that are unique and big, and I need some creative way to get that to you. I need to, I can’t just say it. I have to do something. I have to move in a certain way, or make certain sounds, or maybe invent a new form, or twist something around. Twist a guitar and play it behind my back. What am I going to do? Find if you have that need. That’s what an artist is, I think. If you don’t need that, um, I don’t know why you, why you do it. It’s hard to make money, and it’s not like there’s a pot of gold waiting for you. So, um, anyway, that’s, that is what it’s about for me.

Interviewer (John):

Yeah. But if, if it’s a guy, then what advice would you give young writers or performers now that want to break into TV and, and script writing and children’s TV? I mean, because it’s so difficult now because there’s so much. I mean, it was, I remember when I thought it was only like two or three channels. Now, it’s like, you’re right, two, 300 plus streaming plus. Yeah, you’re right. So, it is really hard. So, what should I?

Billy Aronson:

Well, it, it depends what you like. Um, I’ve talked to a lot of young people when it, when they don’t know what they want to do. I think it’s hard if you have a sense of what you want to do. Even if it’s the hardest thing, you know, the most in-demand thing, and you’re willing to fight for it and to adjust, you know, your focus and to try different approaches, I would, that’s great. I think you’re going to make it somehow. And I write about that. But, um, specifically, if you’re talking about TV, you want to be in TV, I would watch everything that you look for what you love. Find the stuff that you love. Um, if it’s a children’s cartoon, whatever it is, figure out who’s producing it, which usually isn’t too hard, and reach them. Uh, honestly tell them, even if they’re somewhat famous, if you can honestly say, “I love what you’re doing because of A, B, and C,” you know, and they get that. Wow, this is not someone who’s just going through every TV channel and and pushing the same letter and putting send, you know, if they think, “Wow, you get me.” Then at least they want to read what you’re saying. And I think they would give you, they’re more likely to look at what you’ve got to show. Uh, it’s always hard to break in, and it takes a lot of knocking on doors. That’s the, the metaphor I use, because they’ve, I mean, shows that are already running have writers, you know, so it’s tricky. You have to prove that you’re almost better than what they’ve got. And then to get your own show made, you know, you have to, it is also tricky. But, um, when you’re not going to a lot of doors, and one opens, one will open, and that’s your career, you know. So, they, it doesn’t matter all the doors that were closed. No one knows how many theaters rejected Rent because they don’t talk about it. The theaters that had anybody who had anything to do with Rent talks about it. But, uh, every other theater that did musicals in New York, uh, rejected it because the New York Theater Workshop that finally premiered it had never done a musical before. He went to every place else. But, uh, who cares, you know? They, so they slammed the door in his face. All you need is that one door, and then it opens. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

Uh, um, now recently, we’ve had quite a few people from Hollywood, um, who’ve worked in Hollywood, um, on the podcast, and they’ve been talking about, you know, to bring things back up to date, you know, that that things are not that great in, in Hollywood. I thought it would be interesting to ask you, you know, what you’ve had decades of experience in the New York art scene. What are things like in New York? New York. Yeah. And, and, um, uh, where do you see the future in terms of the New York art scene?

Billy Aronson:

Well, I can’t tell where things are going. I don’t understand AI. I know it’s huge. I’ve seen characters create. I mean, I know someone who was trying to make a show where the animation would be done by AI. I imagine people are doing that right now, where you just, so the script just says, “Describe something,” and you give that description to AI, and it creates this girl with a hat, whatever you ask for. I’ve seen that animation, and what I’ve seen looks like beautiful, but doesn’t have a soul. So, maybe that’s because I’m old, or I expect other things. So, I, that’s my hunch, is that there’s still humanity. It needs to express itself. But, so, but I can’t tell exactly where. Will it be a new form? Will there be a stage? I think there, we always need something. I mean, right now, there’s exciting stuff that seems to be happening in New York in musicals. Ever since Rent and, and, um, Spring Awakening and shows like that, there seems to be a lot of cool stuff, new musicals that feel very contemporary. Music is hip, and, um, with themes that people can relate to, young people. Well, sometimes you feel this is safe formats that they use, Harry Potter, or they use something that’s been going on. There’s a lot of that. I will not say that that’s taken over New York. There’s a lot of things that are like they used to be. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

What, what can I just ask, which of your work are you most proud of? If of all your writing, what, what is that you?

Billy Aronson:

Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I would say in general, maybe Peg Plus Cat, certain episodes of that, but also the show I’m writing a show now. I’m making a musical with a, a Korean Brooklyn composer named Ji Lee, based on Shakespeare’s “The Tempest,” of all things. This weird, violent love story. I think we found something in there that’s worth, um, worth getting to young, the young people of today about a generation struggling with this world that we’re in now, with lying everywhere and wars that no one understands. So, anyway, I’m, I’m excited about that. At least it’s going to be done in Prague and Cincinnati next year, if all goes as planned. But, um, anyway, so maybe that. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

So, you actually anticipated what was going to be my next question, which is, you know, what you’re doing in the future. So, you’ve got that, and, and you’ve obviously written many plays, um, for, for the New York theater, both, um, full-length plays and, and one-act plays. Um, and are you continuing to, to do that, to, to continue to write plays, whether short form or long form? Because, you know, obviously you’re working on musicals there that you mentioned, but are you going to continue the, the, the pure drama?

Billy Aronson:

Yeah, I would love to. So, I’m hoping the two of you will have an idea for me to write my next play. Right. Oh, I see. You know, it’s just gotten to be, I know so often now when I start something, it just takes me a long time to get started on a play because it’s, I’m just very critical. I know that’s not going to work. Why am I starting if it’s not going to work? And no one’s going to do it unless I think it’s the greatest. I mean, it doesn’t have a chance. If I don’t think it’s the greatest thing in the history of the earth, no one’s, it doesn’t have a chance because I usually think that when I’m done, and then it’s a fight to get someone to read it. So, why start something I’m not madly in love with? And I’m looking, I read a lot now. Uh, I am busy with the “Tempest” and “Pressed Love War,” it’s called, and I’m promoting my, my book “Out of My Head” right now. But I do have time and always am looking to start something new. But I will, if you have something like Succession, that we kind of, Great show. Yeah. We very missed. I love Succession. Do you guys watch, watch Succession? That’s so cool, isn’t it? It is. Scotsman in the lead. Scotsman lead. Oh, he’s so good. But he’s mean. I love that show. That’s a good idea. I’m going to write that show or something. Something on that. Something that successful would be nice. That’s what we’re missing. Yeah, I agree.

Interviewer (John):

Could I just, we always ask people, um, what would you say to your 21-year-old self? What were your young self? What would?

Billy Aronson:

Well, I wouldn’t have listened, but I wish I’d said, “Don’t worry so much. It’s going to be okay. You’re, you’re going to be a grown-up. You’re gonna pay your bills, okay? Don’t be ashamed of yourself everywhere you go because you’re an artist. You’ll, it’ll work out.” Because I really doubted that for years. Deep down, I thought I just felt like a fail. Like I’m hiding the fact that I don’t know who I am. I’m a failure. I have to hide this fact. And, uh, you know, everything worked out. And it does work out in different ways. We find our way, you know, with some adjustments here and there, but it’s just very hard. With my own kids, when they were in their early 20s, you get out of school, and all of a sudden you think, “Okay, now it’s my life. Where is it?” And that’s a lot of pressure, which makes it hard to enjoy this wonderful body you have in your 20s, you know. Um, although they still find a way to party a lot.

Charlotte:

If, if you can hear them away from the screens, I think, right?

Billy Aronson:

Oh, yeah. That’s hard for me, even just checking these things on YouTube. They, they know what I like now. They, all my favorite shows, they know that. So, it is hard to get away from the screen. Yeah.

Interviewer (John):

Well, look, it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you, um, Billy. And, um, you know, I’m, I’m slightly trepidatious when you say you’re looking for inspiration. So, I, I suspect I’ll find that you’ve written a play about a Scotsman in a Swedish. I like it. So, I think, how can people get in touch with you? And they say that our viewers want to find out more about you. Yeah, which I would love. I’d love to hear from your viewers. Uh, billyarnson.com is my website, and you can contact me through that, and I would love to hear from them. And all the details, it’s even more accurate there than IMDb, which I appreciate IMDb because people read that. But, you know, they make a mistake here and there, and it attributes me to 70 episodes of something that I unfortunately didn’t write.

Charlotte:

That you didn’t write.

Billy Aronson:

Well, better than the opposite. Yeah. I, I would definitely check your IMDb because he’s got you down as, um, 70 episodes of this, and production manager for this, that it looks as if you didn’t even do. But anyway, thank you very much, Billy. And it’s been a real pleasure.

Billy Aronson:

Thank you both. I love, I can’t wait to hear this. Yeah, it’s, it’s a good conversation. So, thank you very much